Scottish Orienteering

Angela Dixon says:

I think leaving it to the organising club means that it won’t really happen. I was dealing with inputting last minute changes into the computer at the TAY SOL and the club members dealing with last minute changes and EODs were so busy that getting them to add extra questions re whether or not juniors were shadowed would have led to longer queues. We did wonder if some of the faster yellow times were really for unaccompanied juniors, as some folk found the yellow course tough, but thought we’d rely on parental honesty to contact TAY or Robin Strain who did the results if they saw their child high up a SOL list when they should be uncompetitive.

Perhaps there should be some sort of official SOL info sheet that the organiser of the SOLs could put on the webpage of the SOL that has things like shadowing protocol and declaring your child non-competitive if they are shadowed. This could maybe be with the info on which course corresponds to which age group for SOL rankings. This would rely on people looking at the website and not just entering via O Entires or whoever. Maybe it could be repeated on the final details info.
I’m not sure how much of a problem undeclared shadowing really is.
Maybe briefing start officials so they have a word with any parents accompanying children starting the competetive courses would help, but then our start officials at SOL1 were busy enough without added stuff.
I think it’s important solo juniors don’t get discouraged by seeing children who were shadowed further up the results than they are. I’ve never really found it a problem with Duncan, but then we didn’t start doing SOLs until he was orange and I presume this is a yellow problem, the whites being non-competetive for SOL points anyway.

Dave McQuillen says:

Maybe we need a definition of ‘shadowing’?  If the parent or shadower is there simply for reassurance, i.e. following at a respectable distance (50 metres+) and the ‘shadowee’ successfully navigates the course without assistance, then perhaps there is a case for saying that they were competitive.  However, as soon as the shadower provides any form of help, volunteered, requested, spoken or otherwise indicated then the shadower has clearly been assisted and should thus be declared non-competitive.  This approach requires total honesty on the part of the parent.  On balance if the concensus is that a rule is necessary then, taking Angela Dixon’s point, for simplicity it should be that any form of shadowing makes the run non-competitive.

Question:  How many SOL competitors, junior or senior, declare themselves non-competitve after they have received assistance on, or more usually, off their course?  I have been asked for help many times and don’t remember seeing any n/cs in the results afterwards.

Does it really matter?  It’s not as if there’s a fortune to be won!

Mieke says:

I think there is a natural progression with regards to kids being shadowed or running solo..
Our family has only been orienteering for 2 years now - We started off together, then progressed to shadowing from a distance, and before we knew it the boys were off on their own - too fast on their feet to keep up with anyway!
Shadowing has its place as a learning tool and should in my opinion be allowed at clublevel, which is where most of us learn…
There should not be any shadowing of children in the SOLs, in other words - kids should only run a SOL when they are ready to go out on their own (even on a white).
In reaction to Angela’s comment above: I know for a fact that all INVOC juniors on yellow ran by themselves. It perhaps helps some of them to be in their 2th yellow year as the courses were in my opinion indeed very difficult across the board, but the top INVOC finishers are also known to be very fast runners who deserve their resp. placings !

Angela Dixon says:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply I thought the top yellow runners were all shadowed, I was impressed with the top yellow times though and as the fact that this issue must have arisen out of concerns about some kids, and I’m less familiar with the INVOC juniors than the more southern juniors this seemed a possibility. I know the top light green competitors, and some of the top orange ones. They were extremely good times on a difficult course.
Ideally if the parent doesn’t declare their child non-competitive, probably more out of ignorance than a desire to cheat, then a friendly club mate could point it out to them, assuming they know.
I don’t regard helping people as cheating in the same way. If a child, or adult is hopelessly lost I would rather they ask me and finish the course as competitive than wander round for hours and never want to orienteer again. Generally if you get that lost you aren’t going to be finishing in the top few in your class anyway.

Kevin says:

I shadowed my wee one on the yellow and I haven’t declared.
Yep, I should, but we have not really taken it that seriously.
We set off with the intention of her doing most of it herself, but I’m glad she had a safety net, it was well beyond her ( and I think, beyond TD2.)
Secondly, we didn’t finish even within a glimpse of a Badge time- hats off to the guys in front. To finish further up the field and to achieve a badge time are aspirations to my little slow coach.
Lastly, this little one would not have been entered on the SOL yellow had we known there was an EOD white available. (If stated at all, this wasn’t clear on the website. This is not meant as a criticism of the sterling efforts of the organisers at what was a great and child friendly venue. Our kids are eager to see the friends they made at the next SOL, Hurrah!!!)
Please, lets not get too serious about it with the kids, but lets play fair.
Perhaps if a kid achieves a badge time having been shadowed they should declare non competitive- but by this time they should probably be out on their own anyway.

Claire Duncan says:

I think shadowing juniors is OK at SOLs on white/yellow (only) in the interests of distraught-child prevention.  You can not enforce the nc declaration without hugely increasing the overhead for the organising club (and the queues/start checks) and relying on parents answering questions honestly. I think you have to accept that there may be a few spurrious results on occasion.  Perhaps it just needs a standard paragraph in the final details to remind parents to declare their child n/c at download (or later date) if they have achieved significant assistance.  Which then of course, leads to the debate of what is “significant” . . . !  But all in all, it’s a non-issue, even if my kids are beaten by an assisted runner.

Colin says:

Let’s not take it all too seriously. Let’s encourage our juniors to get out in the forest as much as possible and let’s encourage wider participation rather than elitism.

For parents SOLS are very difficult. A junior may have been running a course quite happily at local events but often at a SOL the course can be many times harder than they are used to. It’s unfortunately very difficult to judge - an orange can be hugely different difficulty from one event to the next. Much more consistency in difficulty would be a great help.

Ann says:

We do need to allow shadowing at SOLs. It is part of the family day out. In my opinion, for white, it really doesn’t matter. For yellow, it is great to give credit to those little ones who manage alone, but I would not ask for the others to be non-competitive, just for a +1 to be added next to little persons name.  My main gripe is about the adults who shadow before they run. I know that juggling the family is not easy, but I also know that if I chose to saunter round a white, casually taking in all the features close to this finish area, then that would assist me hugely when I am tired at the end of my own run. I know that this goes on…and shouldn’t. Please play fair.

Mike Rodgers says:

I completely agree with Ann (and others) about allowing shadowing. Under the new system where there aren’t separate colour coded courses, any junior being shadowed should simply have “+1” annotated against their name.  Maybe the start officials could make a note of these so that the entry list can be updated later on.  We’ve managed to entice quite a few new juniors into Moravian in the last year or so , and some parents are being sucked into the sport as a result of going round the courses with their kids. We want to get these newcomers to the big events so they can see the sport at more than just a local level.  Let’s encourage as many people as we can to get out in the forest!
I don’t agree with Ann’s point about shadowing before your run however.  If you’re good enough to be competitive I don’t think it makes a scrap of difference if you’ve run the white course beforehand (anyway, chances are you’ll already have run in the area at a previous event).  Maybe it does if you’re a relative novice, but if you’re a novice and not expecting to do very well I think it’s nice to get some confidence by seeing a bit of the area first! Who cares if you come 21st instead of 22nd as a result?
Sometimes I think we orienteers take ourselves just a bit too seriously.  SOLs aren’t the Scottish Champs so let’s relax and enjoy ourselves, whatever level we’re at.

Kevin says:

There does seem to be a bit of a consensus forming around a reasonable tolerance of shadowing.
Paul’s initial post indicates that he had some representation from others on the issue. As someone known for strong opinions, (and often little insight,) I think its important to hear all opinions in a debate. I would be interested to hear from those who have sympathies with the representations to limit shadowing or exclude it altogether.

Angela Dixon says:

Would the people tolerating shadowing and favouring the child having +1 next to their name but their result and place still standing in the results still expect their child to get SOL league ponts? For many this is irrelevent because alot of folk don’t do enough SOLs for it to matter.
I think that as the SOL is our national league then points should only go to those who are unaccompanied. What about badge points (when they finally work out how the BOF badge scheme is going to work with SOLs with the changes to courses)?
The BOF regulations say you are only eligible for the BOF badges if unaccompanied (same with colour coded badges).
It sounds as though we need a balance of encouraging confidence in young orienteers, but giving recognition to those who compete on their own. I think adults shouldn’t run round the SOL area in any capacity until after their event. This is supposed to be a serious competition, OK it’s not the Scottish Champs but it’s the next level.
My preference would be for no shadowing at SOLs, apart from on the non-competitive white and long orange courses because to me that’s what local events are for. If you’re not sure that your child is up to a particular level then enter them for the 1 below. Not making clear there was a white course available was obviously a problem with SOL1. All this +1 stuff and removing people from rankings and badge points does sound alot of hassle for our volunteers now I type it all down.
On the other hand if alot of families wouldn’t come to SOLs if they couldn’t shadow their kids then perhaps it’s a hassle we have to accomodate.

Mieke says:

I agree with Angela - SOLs are our national league (a step up from clublevel towards the Scottish Champs) and shadowing should not take place on them.
I do not think that we need to worry about people not turning up because they can not shadow. I would have thought that most people would only turn up to a SOL after having had let’s say half a dozen practise sessions at local level?? Enough to run solo at the SOLs, even if that means running down a level.
Most grown ups (and they should let their kids do the same) would not run their first ever solo course of their chosen level at a SOL, but they would have had a go at clublevel first.
So: let them run alone and lets show how proud we are of ALL the kids who really ran THEIR whole course by themselves…

Mieke says:

a little follow on as my thoughts expand into the afternoon ...
Beacause it is nice to ALL have a go,
I would not want the families with really little ones to miss out and think the white course should possibly be the only course to allow shadowing. Both because of ‘you can not run down from there’ and its often the highlight of the day for those tiny ones who accompany older siblings/parents to the SOLs. It would be very boring for them not to be able to take part in anything…
I don’t think this is an issue for the long orange - since its non competitive , shadowing is neither here nor there to me, but the younghster who could do a long orange with security of a shadowee, could probably manage a yellow on their own.

Dave Robertson says:

I think shadowing and going round in pairs/groups are excellent ways to build confidence and ability. To completely ban it from SOLs would discourage aspiring juniors and be daft. I do think it should be noted in results (+1 or whatever) and, ideally, not counted in final SOL rankings. However the time should be left in the individual event results.

I’m not keen on people shadowing before their own, competitive, run.

Angela Dixon says:

I see that as well as SOL 2 the first event in the Oban trio also says no shadowing apart from on the white and yellow courses. I presume people can still go round on other courses together if they wish as long as they declare a +1. I ask this because Duncan was planning to do his first solo green course but is now getting cold feet and muttering about us going round together (no doubt bickering all the way). I had presumed telling the start and download folk we we’re doing it as a pair rather than 2 individuals wouldn’t be a problem as it’s a local event but now wonder if it would be frowned on. He probably won’t make his mind up about what he wants to do until we’re at the start.

Mieke says:

Hi Angela: Personally I do not have a problem with anyone at any level going round in pairs on local events. Its a great way to gain confidence.

Paul Frost says:

As organiser of the weekend events I don’t have a problem with pairs on any course on the Saturday, as it is just a local event aimed at encouraging people to try things.

Anon says:

So, both the local event and the SoL have information posted on shadowing beginners, and shadowing before a competitive run.
(I have often found it strange how the most simple sports like golf or athletics could be cluttered up by complex rules. Graeme Obree and his bike come to mind.)

Getting my kids out onto their yellow and white is a stressful process. Often they are not the co-operative little darlings we would like them to be and quite honestly there are times when the eyes are rolled and there are sullen faces from both adults and children. There are also big anxieties to deal with in going out and doing courses independently. Some other folks kids take to it like ducks to water, but not ours, not all the time.

The stress is contributed to by an awareness of your own start time and an eagerness to get them round their course, often dealing with the residues of a sulk or tantrum while you have been hurrying them to a start.
But its been worth it with the possibility that we could find a sport that we all do together- continue through and hopefully achieve that. Participation is our goal, not podium places.
But now there are new restrictions posted.
Have we really been offending anyone as we toodled around? (barely in the top half of finishers at best.)

Have I really been cheating by doing a white course with my daughter prior to my own? ( I feel I have a pretty strong sense of fairplay and I dont think there is any real advantage obtained. I think any advantage is perceived. I’m a beginner myself. I’m pleased to achieve a bronze badge time.)
So, how welcoming are the newly publicised rules?  From where I am, not very.
Although separate issues, there is a fair bit of other assistance going on at SoLs- following, requests for help from competitors ( adults and children) on other courses and similar shenanigans. Following the precedent set, perhaps rules should be strongly enforced for these too.
 
That reminds me of something on our BoF cards.
More People? - well, we aren’t quite so likely to travel to the distant events at least as a result of this new policy.
More Places/ More Podia- We wont be there to cheer the winners, who believe us, we were not threatening.

There needs to be a discussion about what the purpose and priorities of the local and SoL events are. Somewhere in the posts about the scoring system for the league there is something about it being a high quality national series, serious enough, but encouraging participation. This should also apply to our beginners. (I can see that the Scottish Champs might be something a bit different in terms of Elite competition/ participation balance.)

Good luck to everyone tomorrow.
Good luck to everyone that goes to the next SoL at Hawick. Its a fair distance for us and where previously we had thought about going perhaps now we’ll go for a family cycle or a walk instead.

Paul Frost says:

When writing the final details I copy/pasted some text that was the same for all three events and included the shadowing bit by mistake for the local event at Inverawe.

I hear where you are coming from about rules etc. but orienteering is a competitive sport. I am one of those that doesn’t take it too seriously, because I am a rubbish orienteer, but others do. So my race is against the others at the bottom of the results list so I would prefer it that even they play fair and declare that they had help.

I could complete my course and then go out on it again a few hours later and make the same and some new mistakes, because my terrain memory is zero!
But I know others that comment on how “that boulder was used for a control at the 1986 event”. So that’s why it’s expected that you should have had your own run first.

Also I do not normally consider asking for help even when I have been lost for 30 mins, because it’s against the spirit as well as the actual rules.

Mike Rodgers says:

Roo Hornby, Steve Smirthwaite and I made the long trip down to Oban at the weekend and guess what?  Despite leaving the kids at home, we talked about shadowing before our runs and we all came to the conclusion that the advantage gained by shadowing a junior on yellow or white before your own run is nothing compared with running a complete M45 (or whatever) course a year beforehand.  Roo and I had never run in the area before so maybe we were at a disadvantage to those die hards who’ve been there before.  Did we care?  What do you think?  We had a terrific time despite the odd howler here and there (which no amount of prior shadowing would have prevented), and if the guy one place in front had done 3 laps of the yellow beforehand we couldn’t have cared less.  We could have done with being shadowed ourselves!  Actually, I suspect that the tribulations of shadowing a tantrum-happy junior before your run is much more of a handicap than an advantage. Not the best sort of mental preparation for a big race!  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, let’s relax a bit and make events as enjoyable as possible for everyone.

Roo Hornby says:

Just to add to Mike’s comment above.  We were also tickled to note how many parents on Sunday were able to get a free look at the area map (with start and finish on) as they rightly had the opportunity to discuss White and Yellow courses with their children.  Unlike the JK, there were no area maps made available on a board in the assembly area for all competitors to look at.  We still weren’t bothered as I know I perform far better when I only have to concentrate on myself.  Traipsing up to many of the distant starts twice in a day is enough to drain anyone!

Paul Frost says:

My apologies for not putting up a copy of the map on the display board. I was having problems with the printer and forgot. The maps were available on the EckO website and a RouteGadget of our last event there.

Thinking about Roo’s comment though, shouldn’t I as a non-parent also be given sight of the white & yellow maps so I am not disadvantaged (playing devil’s advocate here)?

Or should we not issue white & yellow maps in advance (they don’t at the 6Days). Perhaps we should only give them out at the pre-start and only then to parents that have already competed.

I find it interesting that these topics are only being raised now, what has been happening for the last xxx years?

In discussing the topic I discovered that it is normal practice in EckO for older juniors to shadow the younger ones (ie.9 year old shadowing a 6 year old). This is always after they have had their own run though. So we need to broaden out any rules/guidelines we create to cover this.

Mieke says:

I have only ever met friendly people at orienteering and my attitude towards any of them does not change just because they choose to express an opinion thats different to my own.
I think that it is a shame that’Anon feels he/she needs to sign off like that.

The kids sulking and the time you allow to get them and their (occasional?) tantrums to the start is really a family issue here.As is whether its worth traveling the distances involved to the SOLs with your particular family combination.We have been in the same boat and still are at times too…so I do apriciate where you’re coming from.

If it really is about FAMILY participation; We have (and I know of other people who do now!),when the kids were still needing shadowed on a white, taken it in turns to participate in orienteering events. Eg dad got to run in Oban, whilst mum shadowed/looked after the little one, and mum gets to run in Hawick whilst dad is shadowing/parenting.

When family participation AND our own personal participation became important(as is for us now, though the kids compete and we’re just glad to get round) we moved on to taking it in turns to run at the same event, so ALL would have a run. Most events offer split times exactly for the purpose of being able to parent/run in turns.

As the kids are getting older this is less of an issue as they will happily play football and have a picknick whilst waiting for mum/dad to return.

Though similar start times now DO give us a chance to look at the kids maps before our own runs,I don’t perceive having a look at a plain/white/yellow map before your own run to be of any advantage as I identify with Paul about terrain memory being zero.But I appriciate there are other opinions out there. A plain map (eg at registration) for all to see would perhaps be the fairest option to suit most orienteers.

The only thing I would like to add for anyone shadowing a white is that I know that some of the whites as youngh as 6 or 7 are out on their own and for them I would ask others to have a +1 added to their shadowed childs name.

Paul Duley says:

Well, I am overwhelmed by the response to this debate on shadowing. It has created a much larger response than even the discussion about new SOL rules and guidelines (which is saying something).

I have deliberately kept out of things until now because I wanted non-internet users a chance to contribute to the debate via Score. As the magazine is now out, I will try to summarise the various views so well-expressed and put forward a discussion note in the next Score (and on the web).

I think anybody who has followed the stream will understand that there are no easy solutions to all this that will please everybody and so ask in advance for consideration if, ultimately, proposals are put forward with which you disagree.

Alternatively if you feel really strongly, come along to the SOA AGM on 23rd May and volunteer for a position in the SOA so your voice can more clearly be heard. We will be glad to welcome you.

Thanks to everybody who has contributed.
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